It is the tradition found in Matthew, Mark, and John and it is the tradition given us by an actual eyewitness, Paul.”. At first, James White’s academic credentials look impressive: B.A. Browse 60+ years of magazine archives and web exclusives. If he did, he would have been too tough to … How scholars, fans, and on-field stars have related faith and athletics. Held at College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, Massachusetts on March 28, 2006. (2/2) Thanks in advance, I appreciate your blog and work very much, even as a Christian myself! Drat! Enter the later Gospels whose writers decided to interpret Paul’s celestial resurrected Christ as being a man, who used to be dead and three days later was brought back to life. My questions is- is this all a good case at all for interpolation, or just pure speculation? Paul spoke to the Athenians at the Ahora about the “unknown” god. by Neil Godfrey . He came to UNC in 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. However, it is important that, while coming to entirely different conclusions, we understand the basis for each others narratives. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. How do we know it wasn’t John the Baptist who said all those things? I find the mythicist argument to be irritating and annoying, like a fly that won’t go away. And there is nothing in the Zoroastrian story that resembles the gospel narrative in any but the most superficial symbolic way. I did not know Santa Claus has an historical kernel. Did you assume Crossan (whose view you reference in both books) hadn’t done his homework? In other words, using Hollywood vernacular, the Gospel Jesus was a zombie. I’m very surprised that a man of Bart Ehrman’s position and credentials would debate some one like James White. So Ehrman does not appear to have any coherent method for deciding who does or doesn’t exist.”, “Ehrman did not say this as explicitly in the debate as he has in print. Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Filed under: Biblical Scholars, Biblical Studies Tags: Bart Ehrman, Christ Myth Debate, Robert M. Price IT seems Richard Carrier wrote his review of your debate with Dr. Price. The reasons for thinking the seven letters widely accepted as Pauline are Pauline are a bit complicated, but they have to do with the widespread unity of thought and expression and coherence with a plausible historical situation in the 50s CE. Bart, thank you for sharing this. The writers made a point of proving Jesus was flesh and blood by making him eat fish. They want Jesus to not have existed. William Lane Craig and Bart D. Ehrman Debate the Question "Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?" Thus, what’s improbable is that Jesus’ body was buried in the way that the gospels suggest. He also teaches eight of The Great Courses’s widely acclaimed Bible and Christianity classes, and has a part in 78 others. Transcript. Revelation 13:8; comparing translations and reading the annotation in the Jewish Annotated NT (Levine et al) I see it is ambiguous whether the Lamb was slaughtered from the creation of the world or the elect were elected from creation. And thankfully I have that option by subscribing to the blog!! And every dime you pay (less than five a week) goes to help the needy. Was The Messiah Supposed to Be Born of a Virgin? Anyway, I’ve been wondering if some of the sayings of Jesus were misattributed to him. On April 4, 2014 I debated Dr. Bart Ehrman on the campus of the University of North Alabama in Florence, Alabama. All comments will be moderated by the post author before release. Midwestern is a Southern Baptist institution. Do you know the author? I had committed to a public debate with the prominent agnostic New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman. Ehrman repeats a lot of what he argued in the 2006 debate, even on issues where Craig had corrected him. His scholarship was leading people away from the Christian faith and sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of many others; he needed to be answered. From my understanding Dr. Price suggests that if Jesus was a real person who he was is so wrapped up in the myth and the legend surrounding him that who he was has been lost. Strauss said: “when we find details in the life of Jesus evidently sketched after the pattern of these prophecies and prototypes, we cannot but suspect that they are rather mythical than historical. Thanks for sharing this debate Bart. Please adjust gear icon for 720p High-Definition: I’m glad to hear that the debate ended up being a nice experience. Watching this debate is the reason I was pointed out of the direction of mythicism. When are you going to let this go? The Dark Side of the Bart Ehrman-Robert Price Debate. Each blog member is allowed to make 2 comments a day. -I’ll never let go because the evidence is so obvious. Bart Ehrman posted the debate audio on YouTube: Details: Bart Ehrman is the US author of the bestselling book “Misquoting Jesus” (In the UK “Whose word is it?”). 2020 Schedule of Speaking Engagements Professor Bart Ehrman is much sought after as a speaker for colleges, universities, divinity schools, civic groups, and religious organizations of all types. Are there any non-disputed passages in Paul’s 7 letters that use archon in a way that cannot be taken to mean heavenly principalities? Nobody has ‘proven’ all life on earth is the result of evolution as described by Darwin. You can, if you want, imagine a scenario in which Jesus was given some kind of decent burial. I think that in your reply, you’re getting parts of sentences mixed up. They just want to be seen by posterity as having picked the winning side. Richard Carrier November 29, 2018, 7:34 pm I proved, with evidence, that Ehrman lied. If I may stray off topic a bit… I’m reading “How Jesus Became God” and looking at the creed in Romans 1:3-4, you use the words “appointed Son of God…by his resurrection” in verse 4 and when I look at the NIV, NASB, KJV and the NKJV, they translate the words as “declared Son of God…by his resurrection”. The fact is, humans tend to shape and sort their real-life experiences into mythical templates (we do this today; we just mainly don’t know we’re doing it). Jesus existed. At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. Crazy. Actually Carrier has developed interesting arguments against theism. From the Unbelievable radio show, a debate featuring one of my favorite New Testament scholars, whose most recent book on gospel differences was published by Oxford University Press, the most prestigious academic press in the world. Looks like it will cover some of the same ground as your new book. So I don’t know if thats true… (1/2). Vs 3: “For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received:…”. It would seem much in the text is simply invented. Crossan and others expanded the list of options for what we have to think about in this area. Transcript. You’ll never convert the diehards but I thought you made the case for historicity succintly and well. It’s not likely, and I tend to think Crossan was right. But judge not lest ye be judged. Subscribers receive full access to the archives. Don’t these two English words imply different meanings in our usage? No, haven’t read it. I listened to a debate between Bart Ehrman and Mike Licona where Ehrman cited what he considered to be Bible contradictions and in several cases, Licona seemed to agree with him. I Befriended Bart Ehrman by Debating Him I’ve been blessed by my friendships with debate opponents, despite strong disagreements. And I’m kind-a thinking that I’ve already debated one mythicist, and probably that’s enough. And the subsequent accounts of Jesus’ baptism in Matthew, Luke, and John all indicate a growing desire to either explain this event away, or ignore it. I doubt if that’s true, actually. White’s post-debate report of the debate is HERE, which is a good listen.Here is part 2 of White’s review of the debate. In 1 Co 15. You can go to conservative websites and see people saying this or that denier of evolution or global warming totally confuted and defeated the mainstream scholars he debated with at this or that event. Ehrman… I have watched many hours of his interviews and am quite surprised that he never really fully discounts Jesus’ existence. Here are some of things he claimed, “Ehrman even admitted in this debate that some historical persons are invented in the Gospels (e.g. Additionally, he already had several public debates under his belt. His argument is not with theism–nobody can ‘win’ the argument over whether or not there’s a God. And no, don’t know the book yet! Why particularly Galatians ? He framed this point such that he clearly intended the audience to believe those two facts entail that these features derive from (a) multiple (b) eyewitness sources.”. Received from who? Should an astronomer spend their time studying and collecting data on stars, planets and comets, or debating people who think the moon is made of cheese? And the same could be said for stories told all over the world, because when you get right down to it, we’re all telling the same stories. Bart Ehrman debates James White on Did the Bible Misquote Jesus? I don’t think I know him. If this sounds weird and different – you’re right! So Join! That is strange, because being the biological brother of Jesus would obviously have carried high status and a be a worthy designation. It won’t cost you much and you’ll get tons for your money. For his speaking fees and scheduling possibilities, please contact him directly using the contact form by access of the button on the left. In 1 Cor 9:5 Paul identifies some rank and file members as “brothers of the Lord” to differentiate them from apostles, just like he does in Gal 1:19. So did Muhammad. Reply. He did not give any examples, but he said generically that some passages “make more sense” if they were translated from Aramaic into Greek and the Gospels include some Aramaic words. In the meantime, he offers an excellent online course , based partly on Malcom Murray’s book The Atheist’s Primer. Were things still cordial between you after the debate? Were the visions a result of someone physically dying or because of a revelation? Bart D. Ehrman has written or edited thirty books, including five New York Times bestsellers: How Jesus Became God, Misquoting Jesus, God’s Problem, Jesus Interrupted and Forged.Ehrman is the James A. However I do have one question, Dr. Price stated that Galatians 1:18-19 was never quoted by the church fathers therefore this was a later addition. A Blog Fundraiser. But that NEVER means that the verse itself is an interpolation. Later, after doing the research, I realized it really was improbable. But ‘winning’ would be coming up with a better explanation, and Carrier can’t do that, and neither can Price. There’s still a lot of other questions to answer about him, but Carrier, having decided there was no Jesus, never addresses any of these. I recently had an experience with several atheists which, to my surprise, made me realize that some atheists have the same narrow, closed mindedness and dogmatic certainty that I have spent decades trying to escape in Fundamentalists. There is a lot of junk in both what some mythicists say and what some believing Christians say about history of Christianity. Bart Ehrman is well known as a US New Testament Scholar who lost his Christian faith and now questions many core precepts of Christianity, including the Resurrection of Jesus. 1 Cor 15 is a gold mine for the mythicist interpretation. 1. You can’t simply claim a verse is interpolated because it says something contrary to what you think! This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPJh94tA14I, https://ehrmanblog.org/did-jesus-exist-my-debate-with-robert-price/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBouQbYpqM, Responses to my Newsweek Article on Jesus, Love Your Neighbor as Yourself. And Sheffield (like you) has a massive ego that he's assuaging so now he can go to other folks and say, "But I debate Bart Ehrman," as if this makes him the next James White or Dan Wallace. At one point in the debate, Ehrman brings up a hypothetical scenario in which an investigator 2,000 years from now comes upon a story about two men, Bart Ehrman and Peter Williams, who travel through London to a debate that never happens. Who is probably better documented than most religious leaders in ancient history. The debate was a really great experience to watch. What he thought Jesus was before and after his mortal life is another matter. I have massive respect for Robert Price. Apparently they got this from Paul’s letters… A lot sooner then the 18th century. One of the sticking points for the case of histrocity vs. mythicism is the resurrection. Which verse were you referring to? a number of traditions can be traced to Aramaic sources. He was an established scholar, an award-winning professor at a prominent university, and a New York Times best-selling author. So while I agree that there is no explicit statement that Paul knew Aramaic, I do think there are implicit ones. to establish Paul’s usage of archon independent of the passage about Christ having been crucified by the rulers (archons) of this age. It made me think that Price may have got some of his ideas from him. Pilate almost certainly did not speak Aramaic. Price could never answer the question “Why would Jews preserve the story (which the non-Jewish Mark then reported more or less faithfully) that the divine Son of God, conceived without sin, needed to be baptized by John–who baptized for the forgiveness of sin?”. Which word is actually better? Glad to join here. Jesus is the core of Christianity. Paul does not call Christians in his greeting as “brothers of the Lord”. So, here’s my question, why in your 1999 book did you say that “it seems improbable that Jesus’ corpse was simply left hanging on the cross” when (as you acknowledge in your 2014 book) you hadn’t done “any real research on the matter” (157)? Log in for full digital access. Evidence to the contrary (1 Cor 15:8). I am not going to go into the bios of each debater or what I … But Bart, if Mythicism is not credible and it is so obviously wrong, why is it that even great scholars of Christianity can’t demonstrate its falsehood? Mythicist Milwaukee focuses on educating the freethought/skeptic/atheist community about what the organization considers to be the mythological origins of religion. A living man who had been crucified, something nobody ever even attempted to deny until the 18th century. It is curious that he took on your issue regarding the archaeological evidence of the existence of the town of Nazareth as his first order of business, but added absolutely nothing to the discussion of it that already occurs in the book. I had never heard of Bart Ehrman before but the exact opposite happened in this debate. But, only in Gal 1:19 is he a “brother of the Lord”. Michael R. Licona | June 21, 2019 Nor can he claim that because, e.g. by Neil Godfrey . Paul does not say where or when this Christ died, buried or raised. that refer to Christ having been crucified (I think Revelation says the lamb slain before, etc.) Paul uses the “received” phrase in reference to a Christ vision. Carrier and Price have contributed absolutely nothing. Last night I gave you a little teaser about the debate I attended between Kyle Butt and Dr. Bart Ehrman. What makes you think some of them don’t believe what they’re saying? In Galatians, Paul identifies James as the Brother in the first chapter, it is not necessary to repeat his qualification in the same letter. Why is that weird or controversial? Bart Ehrman posted the debate audio on YouTube: Details: Bart Ehrman is the US author of the bestselling book “Misquoting Jesus” (In the UK “Whose word is it?”). Bart argued that the Jesus presented in the Gospel of John is radically different than the Jesus presented in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). This myth is the basis of Christianity. I am not familiar with her work but looking on Amazon her writings seems to concern Second Temple Judaism and builds on Alan Segal’s “Two Powers” idea. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In contrast, I was still a year away from completing my PhD and knew far less about the New Testament and early Christianity. By the way, are you aware of a book being published shortly by Robert Knapp on the origins of Christianity? Jesus went to John to be baptized because he wanted his sins to be forgiven. But there’s an awful lot we don’t know about how the Roman system operated. If there was no Jesus of Nazareth, then Christianity as a theological system will be wholly undone. But he mentions a Tertullian quote in AM, and says Marcion does not have “again’ in Gal 2:!. He keeps honing in on small niggling points and might-have-beens, trying as best as he can to distract people from the fact that his client is guilty–of being a really bad argument based on little more than wishful thinking. Do you think there were Christian proto-mythicists in the 1st century who believed whatever the apostles witnessed 6 or 7 decades earlier was some sort of reenactment of events that had taken place in eternity past? Paul, Cephas, James and the others would have been astounded to learn what had happened to their celestial Jesus a generation later. 2020 Schedule of Speaking Engagements Professor Bart Ehrman is much sought after as a speaker for colleges, universities, divinity schools, civic groups, and religious organizations of all types. As for the other side of the argument, Apostle Paul is a conundrum. I practiced managing the time for giving each answer so I wouldn’t have to rush. Me neither. Log in to continue reading. But those who confront him should not be afraid to push back with reason and common sense. This an interesting debate between two excellent scholars who come to two very different conclusions. He saw himself as a sinful mortal man, conceived in the usual way, who badly needed such forgiveness, and then had a private vision, in which he was called to start his own ministry. In this debate, Dr. Bart Ehrman pointed out that mythicists are often perceived as just wanting to drop a bomb on Christian theology. I recently listened to a debate held earlier this year, between Michael Licona and Bart Ehrman, on the subject of Jesus' resurrection.Much of what I said in a previous post about the 2006 debate between William Craig and Bart Ehrman is applicable to this more recent debate. By all accounts Ehrman decidedly won the debate. This is a beginner’s guide to comprehend Ehrman, and the scholarly response from Christian apologists to debunk his attacks against Historic Christianity. I’m sure you don’t mean to say you’ve realized it really was improbable that Jesus’s body “was simply left hanging on the cross”! If one takes the mythicist viewpoint, then where did those Aramaic sayings come from? It is very common for a verse to have a textual variant in it (is the word “again” original to the verse or not). As I began my journey of deconverting from Christianity I was being mislead into the myth philosophy after reading “Who Was Jesus?” by D.M. Already a CT subscriber? He wants to avoid facing that by calling it uncivil to prove he lied and made mistakes. Given how unusual Jesus’ life had been, it’s possible what happened to his body after his crucifixion was also unconventional (though not supernatural), and that this helped create the legends that came to surround his passing. The answer you provided in yesterday’s Post on the physical interactions with the risen Jesus is a good example. might have been interesting, but I still believe in the existence of Christ. Some of it seems to be innate to all humans. It was February 2008. I’ve been blessed by my friendships with debate opponents, despite strong disagreements. The really interesting part is that someone took Paul’s myth and made it into a story about an actual person. Bart Ehrman needs little introduction to readers of JGRChJ. Of course, I believe you are mistaken. Please post respectful comments even when you have strong opinions. He us perfectly willing to admit he could be wrong – I greatly admire this. And got basic facts wrong. of them are problematic. Price would have made a pretty good lawyer, though he’s not what you’d call a spellbinding orator. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. On April 4, 2014 I debated Dr. Bart Ehrman on the campus of the University of North Alabama in Florence, Alabama. -Yes, Paul would be downright flabbergasted to know people had twisted his words into an historical Jesus of Nazareth. -Where does Paul make it clear that Jesus was a living breathing human? Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. He was an established scholar, an award-winning professor at a prominent university, and a New York Times best-selling author. – Discussion of debate by Matt Dillahunty, Dr. Richard Carrier, David Fitzgerald and Kristyn Whitaker Hood join hosts Sean Fracek and Jason Lawson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBouQbYpqM He came to UNC in 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. The differences in the stories come from the fact that we’ve had different experiences, different cultures. Platinum Post by Marie Wiley. in Gal 2:9, 2:12 and 1 Cor 15:7 he is just James. Click Here for all Posts in a List Format. You also state, “My view now is that we do not know, and cannot know, what actually happened to Jesus’ body” (157). He could be zealous for ancestral traditions and still speak Greek! See something we missed? Want To See My New Book Manuscript? Why did Bart Ehrman really leave Christianity? But even if it were, you don’t establish whether a text is original based on quotations of church fathers; they simply quoted whatever was relevant to what they were talking about. And got basic facts wrong. The only Jesus Christ that Paul knows is the one he’d seen in visions and somehow read about in scripture – as did everyone else who Paul writes about. William Lane Craig speaks at Gracepoint Berkeley Church on The Work of Bart Ehrman. But isn’t Romans 13:1-7 widely thought to be a later interpolation? There is a peer reviewed Mythicist literature: “On the Historicity of Jesus”. Roberts knew about my apologetics work and had asked me if I might be interested in doing a public debate. Yes, I apologized later for laughing when he said he thought Paul didn’t write Galatians. I read in this the implication that Paul studied in the language of the tradition – Aramaic, and perhaps Hebrew (or perhaps not). No such luck. Joseph of Arimathea). If you don’t belong to the blog yet, JOIN!!! Since your field is the history of the NT and the textual study of the documents you must have some thoughts on this. The big problem is that the author of Revelation wrote in terrible Greek, and you can’t even trust regular rules of Greek grammar to figure out what he’s doing. Bart, do you ever bring up Jungian Archetypes and the ‘monomyth’ in these discussions? I discovered this debate on YouTube and initially thought Robert Price was going to give this Bart Ehrman guy a smack down. The event was part of the “Mythinformation Conference” Buzzed Belief Debate Series presented by Mythicist Milwaukee at Turner Hall in Milwaukee, WI on Friday October 21st 2016. Maybe Calvin Roetzel, The Letters of Paul? He’s a horrible debater. “Why do you call me good? 4.25 stars: There is a lot detail packed into this epic debate. At the time it seemed improbable. No one is good but God.” And the Prices over on the other side explain this away as well.
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